17. Navigating the Legal System

In today's episode, Chris and Cory chat with Shayla Peel, Idaho Legal Aid attorney who helps survivors at the WCA.  Shayla talks about her experiences working with law, common issues survivors face in the legal system, and words of validation and advice she would give to survivors. 

If you or someone you care about have experienced domestic, dating or sexual violence please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1.800.799.7233 or one of the WCA's 24-hour hotlines at 208.343.7025 or 208.345.7273.

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For more information and resources, check out these websites!
wcaboise.org
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Want to hear a specific topic? Contact us at outreach@wcaboise.org

Transcript

Intro: 0:01

Welcome to What Compassion Accomplishes, a podcast dedicated to sharing information, ideas and resources about domestic abuse and sexual assault. The topics discussed in this podcast including survivor stories, supportive services, and domestic abuse or sexual violence can be difficult. And we urge you to listen with care. Our hosts are not licensed counselors or mental health professionals. If you or someone you care about have experienced domestic dating, or sexual violence, please call the WCA's 24 hour hotline at 208.343.7025 or the National Domestic Violence Hotline 1.800.799.7233 You can also find more resources in the description of this podcast.

Cory Mikhals: 0:52

Welcome to another edition of What Compassion Accomplishes. I'm Cory Mikhals along with Chris Davis; how are you, my friend?

Chris Davis: 1:00

I am doing really well, Cory. It's so great to be here.

Cory Mikhals: 1:02

Yes, it's hard to believe that this year is coming to a close.

Chris Davis: 1:09

It is. 2021--it seems like we were just beginning. And so much has happened. But yet, so much we still want to accomplish, right?

Cory Mikhals: 1:17

Well, yes. And you know, everything that we talk about every month, every time, every episode, it is something that we have to continue that journey. And we strive to make this world a better place. And together, all of us; all of us, not one of us, not just me, not just Chris, not just one of our guests; it takes all of us together to get to that place and the work of the WCA, that goes 365.

Chris Davis: 1:53

It absolutely does. And everybody can do something, you know. We talk about that--if you're just tuning in today for the first episode of What Compassion Accomplishes, I would really encourage you to go back and listen to some of the past episodes, because we've had some great guests, we've had some great conversations about all of the little things you can do, small things, because I really believe and Cory does to, that uou can do something each and every day, something small, little in your life. You don't have to do big things, you know, it doesn't have to be overwhelming. You don't have to do big, grand gestures. You don't have to spend a lot of money. You don't have to be Mother Teresa or Gandhi. Although those are really wonderful people that I I look up to. But each and each one of us can do things in our lives. And we learned so much by the people we bring on the show to talk with, and we've got somebody really awesome today.

Cory Mikhals: 2:46

Yes, we do. We're excited. Do you want to introduce her?

Chris Davis: 2:49

I would love to introduce her. We have with us today, Shayla, who is an attorney who works with our clients and many other clients actually through Idaho Legal Aid...

Cory Mikhals: 3:01

Don't hold that against her...

Chris Davis: 3:05

Yes. You know, I think attorneys get a bad rap

Cory Mikhals: 3:09

They do.

Chris Davis: 3:10

Because there are many times in your life where you need an attorney. The legal system can be so overwhelming and scary, especially when you're dealing with something like dealing with an abuser, and you don't know how to navigate it. Maybe you've got children and you've got a custody issue. Or you're dealing with where you've had something happen, there's something in your home and you don't know how to reach out, get some help, and you're scared, and you're embarrassed and you've got trauma heavy on top of it. So those things, the layers of the trauma and the fear, which the clients of the WCA and people around the world who deal with sexual assault, domestic abuse, sexual harassment in the workplace, in churches, and all walks of life deal with. So when you have attorneys who focus on that, and learn how to recognize trauma, and how to interact with clients in a very kind and respectful way; these are really angels among us.

Cory Mikhals: 4:14

Yes, and to be legal advocates for you, you know, because they do understand the legal part of it. You're barely understanding what you're going through right now. And so for someone to come forward to ask for help. That's already difficult enough.

Chris Davis: 4:35

Absolutely.

Cory Mikhals: 4:35

And then you start talking about the legal system, and all that and it just compounds all that scary.

Chris Davis: 4:45

Yeah, all the layers that can be so intimidating, and all those factors. So when you have somebody who is willing and and when you've got Idaho Legal Aid or the WCA, who's saying, "don't worry about fees," because having an attorney represent you sometimes can be so costly, and it can be so prohibitive. So, we've got Shayla here with us. And by the way, Shayla has the best dog in the world named They're the best therapy. Dogs are better than people most Maggie. So we're gonna ask her to talk about Maggie too, because dogs can be so calming and amazing. And Maggie is so amazing. times. I want to say thank you for all that you do for those who are in some of the most vulnerable situations, and the scary times, and are finding the courage to come forward and ask for that help. And so I think what you do is amazing, and using your brain and your knowledge. And yes, I know that attorneys get a bad rap. So I want to say, "I'm sorry for all of the shade that you get thrown at you."

Shayla Peel: 5:48

That is just fine.

Chris Davis: 5:49

Because I want to thank you. And I want to welcome you today. And thank you for coming on the show.

Shayla Peel: 5:54

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. And thank you for saying those kind words. I do appreciate that a lot.

Chris Davis: 6:00

So yeah, you make up for the attorneys who aren't so nice.

Shayla Peel: 6:02

You know, I'm trying. I'm out here holding down the fort; I'm trying.

Chris Davis: 6:07

No, we appreciate you. So cut first you gotta tell us about your dog, Maggie, because she comes into the office with you.

Shayla Peel: 6:13

She does. Anyone who knows me is like, "Chris, you're opening up a can of worms asking about Maggie" because, I can go on. But yes, Maggie is my little baby. She is a standard schnauzer. And so she's kind of that perfect size. She's about 35 pounds and she comes to work with me every day has since I got her at nine weeks. She's my emotional support, and she's also really, really good with my clients. Her favorite thing to do if somebody is having a rough time, you know, crying because we're talking through something traumatic, she goes and lays on their feet or right underneath their legs. I know, I'm like"Don't cry, Shayla, that's super inappropriate, don't cry" when she does that, but it's really calming and and my clients really love her and when they bring in kids too, they love playing with her as well. So, she'll just let them pull on her and try to pick her up, but it's just it's really nice having her and I've tried to be on top of making sure she's well trained and well behaved so that she can come to work with me every day, but I think it's super helpful with client meetings, and then selfishly it's also really helpful for me too.

Chris Davis: 7:12

She's got these deep soulful eyes... seriously, she looks at you and I'm thinking "what, do you want a new car? Do you want a new house? I don't know you're a dog but I'll give you whatever you want."

Shayla Peel: 7:22

She's got those big bushy eyebrows too.

Chris Davis: 7:25

I have a schnauzer mix that looks like it looks like a little miniature version of Maggie so I'm like yeah, "I will give you whatever because I had to leave my dog at home."

Cory Mikhals: 7:35

Now, just before we get into everything, I want to know a little bit more about you and to be able to tell people a little bit more about where you got started. What made you decide in this realm of being a lawyer, but then also, beyond that, there are so many different avenues of law and what you could have practiced but to take the avenue that you have?

Shayla Peel: 8:09

Sure, yeah. I was kind of a weird kid; I decided I wanted to be a lawyer in like seventh grade and just stuck with it. People were surprised by that, but I like reading and writing and kind of thought that sounded like a good path. I grew up watching lots of Law and Order with my Mom. We didn't discriminate--regular, SVU, all of the Law and Order

Cory Mikhals: 8:32

Criminal intent

Shayla Peel: 8:34

Yes, exactly; you know. So yeah, just decided when I was young that I really wanted to do that and then it was just kind of confirmed every step of the way. I did some mock trial in high school, loved it, did an internship and undergrad, loved it. So I just kind of kept going through it. I decided I wanted to do public interest law pretty early on and decided that I didn't want to just be another lawyer, wanted to fill a need and be a part of just be needed in a space I grew up in a family that's very heavy on service and leaving places better than you found it. I've heard that my whole life, even just with like clean up "Leave it better than you found it, Shayla," but I appreciate that lesson so much. And, you know, to this day when I go home, we do for holidays, volunteer at the homeless shelter. And so lots of credit to my family, credit where credit is due is that's just how I was raised and decided I wanted to do public interest in law school fairly early on, like I said, and I got involved in our family law clinic there and then also did an externship with the Domestic Violence Coalition in Wyoming and just fell in love with the work and just found a passion for helping a really vulnerable community or a very vulnerable part of our community I should say, who don't always have equal access to the justice system like they should be able to. Like you guys are explaining, it's so confusing and scary and when you're already going through trauma, that just compounds it. And so I'm very passionate about, even if you don't have money, and you're overwhelmed and confused, I want to make sure that people have access to our justice system. And so yeah, I just kind of fell in love with the work and stuck with it.

Cory Mikhals: 10:14

Alright, Wyoming girl, what brought you to Idaho and Boise?

Shayla Peel: 10:18

Well, I'm originally from Colorado, then went to law school in Wyoming, and then ended in Boise. They're all kind of similar.

Chris Davis: 10:24

It's just the wild, wild west.

Shayla Peel: 10:25

Yeah, I guess I'm a West girl. I love my mountains, being outdoorsy. I was talking to someone about it yesterday, actually, Boise is very similar to Colorado in the outdoorsy, dog friendly way, etc. but then has that really community feel that Wyoming has, so I kind of got the best of both worlds. So yeah, just kind of just stayed west.

Chris Davis: 10:47

You touched on it a little bit. And doing the externship I think you get the kind of the feel of that you get the flavor in your mouth? How can the legal system be a barrier for survivors or victims still in in that situation? How can that be the legal system be a barrier for them leaving?

Shayla Peel: 11:05

Sure, I think it can sometimes be the biggest barrier. Just to put it most simply, I think you just don't know how to access it or how to use it, and I think that abusers really take advantage of that fact that the legal system is really confusing. And that is one of the biggest, you know, verbal threats that they'll use is, if you leave, you don't have access to any of the finances, nobody's gonna give you custody of your kids. How are you going to get custody? Can you afford a lawyer? Do you know the process? Do you even know where the courthouse is? And that can be and so, you know, if I was someone in that situation, well, it's easier for me to just stay put, I can protect my kids, I know where they are. I can control this a little bit better and and survive, type of thing. So I think it's just lack of knowledge. I think lack of resources, and abusers know that and they will grab on to that and say like, "you don't know what you're doing, and you can't afford anyone who can explain to you what you're doing. So you're gonna lose your kids, you're gonna lose your house, you're gonna be homeless." If they're undocumented, "you're gonna get deported. You don't know how to get a visa." That's one of the most effective tools. Recently I watched "Maid" on Netflix; I don't know if you guys have watched that. But that scene where she's in the courthouse, and it's like, the judge is just speaking garble at her and all of a sudden, she looks up and he got custody of the kid. That is the perfect scene to show people who are wondering that same thing of how it is a barrier.

Chris Davis: 12:26

So did you experience any of that when you were doing your externship, firsthand? Did you see any of

Shayla Peel: 12:32

Yeah. I mean, I think when I was, in law school, that? I saw not even with domestic violence, but just in general, how people just don't know how to use the justice system. I mean, I couldn't afford an attorney, to be honest. Like, you know, a lot of people can't, and so if you can't afford an attorney, you're like, "I know, this bad thing has happened to me, but I don't know what to do about it. Because I don't know what I need to file. I don't know, the paperwork. I don't know, what's the difference between a scheduling conference and a trial, to be honest, even those are those are vastly different." It's overwhelming. And so I think I saw that not even in the domestic violence context, but I saw that very early on just in law school of, you know, "I'm trying to wrap my brain around how to do all of this. I can't imagine someone who hasn't done three years of law school trying to figure it out."

Chris Davis: 13:16

Well and you know, what you talked about specifically was, how are you going to do this XYZ, you're really talking about power and control

Shayla Peel: 13:23

Right

Chris Davis: 13:23

Which is at the bottom line, what domestic violence is all about. It's about one person exerting power and control ultimately over another person. And so, using the legal system to do that, it's what you're trying to help ultimately avoid by what you're doing now, which is amazing.

Shayla Peel: 13:47

Thank you.

Cory Mikhals: 13:49

Now, when when we're talking about civil legal services, and when we talk about legal services in general, as you were saying, it all seems to be, if you don't know and haven't been privy to it, a lot of garble, a lot of "Wa, wa, wa..." all of a sudden it's the Peanuts. And you're looking at it going, "what does this mean? Why?" So what does it mean to do what you do as opposed to another lawyer?

Shayla Peel: 14:31

Yeah. So, just to give, I guess, a little bit of context, like Chris said, I work for Idaho Legal Aid, but then I'm contracted with the W CA, and I'm there three days a week, and my official role is that I'm a staff attorney who provides civil legal services for survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault or stalking. That is a very broad range, which I love because what it does is it gives clients a lot of empowerment and a lot of self determination. So, when they come into my office, I'm like,"What do you want? What do you feel like you need? What are your goals?" And then, let's go from there on figuring out where those fit into what the legal system can accomplish for you. I'm not going to tell you that you have to go report him and get with the prosecutor and prosecute him. That's not my job. What we're talking about is, "what is your main struggle? Is it housing? Are you afraid you're going to get kicked out because the last fight he punched a hole in the wall?" Great. We can do some follow up protections for you with your landlord, write a letter, things like that. If he's scared you're gonna take your kids, okay, we can do custody. So it's anything that's not criminal. So I don't do criminal charges, anything in the criminal realm; that's going to be public defenders, prosecutors, etc. I'm everything else, essentially. Which is broad, but I love that it's broad. And I really have fought really hard to make it broad as well within our organization within Legal Aid and the WCA, because, traditionally, DV civil attorneys only have done family law. And I think that's really limiting because I think there's a lot of opportunity in other areas, there's immigration, there's landlord-tenant, there's even consumer, you know, or bankruptcy, where the abusers racked up credit card debts in their name.

Chris Davis: 16:08

Which financial abuse, financial is the most common kind. You know, it depends on which statistic you look at, but it's anywhere from 90 to almost 100% of domestic violence relationships include financial abuse, where they ruin their credit, they run up credit, they don't have access to the money, and that is crippling, it's absolutely crippling.

Cory Mikhals: 16:27

Well, I mean, that is that's a huge thing. Like you were saying earlier, you have no money. Where are you gonna go?

Chris Davis: 16:36

Your credit's low; you don't know how to read a credit report; you don't know even know where the bank account is; you don't have an ATM card. If it comes into a green card, or other things that are compounding that.

Cory Mikhals: 16:52

Well, and that's a big one. We haven't talked a lot about that. But immigration law, someone who is being told,"Well, you're just going to be sent back, you know, across the border, you're never going to see your kids." And you have no way to defend it. And I can't even come close to imagining that. It's bad enough being financially crippled, emotionally crippled, physically crippled, and then all of a sudden, you're being told on top of all of that, you're going to be in another country. That type of mental abuse, I can't imagine.

Shayla Peel: 17:42

I will say my immigration clients break my heart the most, because they will put up with years and years of just horrific abuse, because they feel they have no choice because it's so easy for an abuser to reach for that if your undocumented. You don't speak the language, no one's gonna believe you. I'm a citizen, I'm white, I speak the language. Usually, not always, but usually they're male. So they're like,"no one's gonna believe you. I have the upper hand." And it's just easy for them to grab for that and use that kind of mental abuse. And, yeah, my undocumented clients, they're my favorite, because they're just so sweet and so hardworking and amazing, but they break my heart, because they will put up with 10 to 15 years of just heartbreaking stories.

Chris Davis: 18:29

Now you do collaborate if there is a criminal case in there, you do collaborate with prosecutors or law enforcement, right, and talk and help them through and help them understand, right?

Shayla Peel: 18:39

Definitely, yes, and that's actually an area I'm so glad you brought that up. That's an area I want to get more involved in. Because we're completely grant-funded, Legal Aid, and you know so is the WCA is part of our grant funding. Under our grants, we can do criminal advocacy, which I think would be awesome. It would be going with the survivor to their court hearings, because they're not assigned an attorney, you know, all control kind of gets taken away from them once they go through the criminal process. And so to have an attorney be like, "this is what an arraignment is; this is what bail means; this is what a sentencing hearing is." And just explain that, I think would be awesome. I haven't had a chance to get super involved. I do, you know, chat with clients and explain a bit of questions. But I do want to get a better working relationship with our prosecutors to where they'll actually even let me in the courtroom and everything,

Chris Davis: 19:25

Because a lot of times, they may not even

Shayla Peel: 19:26

They should understand if there's a civil protection order, which is what the WCA can help them walk through and obtain a no contact and then a criminal no contact order, which is attached to a

Chris Davis: 19:35

which have to be modified. If there is a criminal criminal case. They can actually have both of those in place, order, and they need modification, they have to modify them separately.

Cory Mikhals: 19:49

Right.

Chris Davis: 19:49

So to even understand how to do that or go through that process can be very, very confusing. And if there's a language barrier, it's very, very complicated. And so to know, even if something happens and there's perhaps criminal charges going to be placed, they maybe may want to go get a civil protection order sooner because they can get one sooner. So, even understanding all those nuances and those processes on the civil side, the WCA and the court advocacy program and the Legal Aid resources that Shayla can offer are there that are separate from the criminal resources available, but they they collaborate.

Cory Mikhals: 20:33

Well, now, Shayla, what is the biggest advice you can give someone, whatever situation they're in right now? And they're scared, and they've been told all of the things that we've talked about, if you could sit in front of someone right now, and not just the ones that actually have come to you and have found that courage to get to that place. But someone who hasn't gotten there yet--what's the biggest advice you could give them?

Shayla Peel: 21:11

Oh, man, put me on the spot.

Cory Mikhals: 21:16

We kind of do that once in a while.

Shayla Peel: 21:17

I really want to affirm and validate that it's frickin scary, and it's okay to be scared. And it's okay to take your time. You know, clients will come to me and they're like, "I'm not ready to separate from him." I'm like, "that's fine. What do you need to feel safe right now? Let's start there. Do you need to do a legal separation instead of a divorce? Legally, it doesn't make a whole difference. But if that's what makes you feel good, let's do it. So I think just knowing don't rush, and don't think that you have to take this huge step and be financially independent and leave your abuser or, you know, maybe you're not even realizing that it's abuse yet. And that's all okay, take your time, process; I just want to validate that it's scary and it's a big deal. Don't let people tell you otherwise. I hate when they're like, "why don't you just leave him?" I know everyone in this room is like skin crawls hearing that phrase, but it's true. That's the biggest thing, you know, don't let people get in your head, you're in your situation, you know your situation best. You have survived this long in whatever situation you're in, take the steps when you're ready to take them and know that it's going to be hard and scary. But that's okay. You know, do it when you're ready is my biggest thing. I hate when people push.

Chris Davis: 22:22

Ask for what you need in that moment.

Shayla Peel: 22:25

Even if it's small, even if you think it's dumb. Just ask. If all you need is like food stamps so you can start feeling a little more independent, do that. Great

Chris Davis: 22:33

Nothing is dumb.You know, nothing really is dumb. first step. What do you write in that moment? And that's okay -- feel empowered to ask where you need in that moment to be okay. Because in that moment, if you can get to be okay, then the next moment, what do you need to be okay, and be better. And that's how you build on that to feel empowered.

Shayla Peel: 22:52

Totally.

Cory Mikhals: 22:52

And even if you don't know what that little step is. You can go to the WCA, you can talk openly, no one is going to push you towards going any direction just like we were talking about, but maybe just sitting down with the WCA, sitting down with Shayla, and maybe finding something you didn't even realize might be that empowering little step, like food stamps, like whatever that happens to be.

Chris Davis: 23:25

You know, there's the WCA here locally, there's ROSE Advocates, there's Advocates Against Family Violence, there's the National Domestic Violence Hotline, if you're listening to this, and you're from outside of our own area, there are so many agencies across the country that are there; they're available. They do offer shelter, but they offer empowerment programming, they offer counseling, there's somebody on the end of the hotline to just talk to you. If you're not sure what's going on in your situation. You're not sure what's available, you're not sure what you even need, just call, just call and talk to somebody, because you may not know what you need until you talk to somebody; you may not know what you want. And that is absolutely okay.

Cory Mikhals: 24:04

And the thing is, most people who love you and care about you, they care and love you enough that they are looking from the outside. And so they're going to be the ones going, "what are you doing, get the heck out of there, be safe, come to my house, go to here, do this do that." And so sometimes just talking to someone who doesn't know you, doesn't know your circumstances, only is someone there to be able to hear you. Just hear you.

Chris Davis: 24:44

It's gonna be non judgmental. It's gonna offer resources.

Cory Mikhals: 24:47

It's huge. Yeah. So, Shayla, thank you so much.

Chris Davis: 24:52

I want to say Shayla's amazing and non judgmental and validating, and it's people like Shayla..,

Cory Mikhals: 25:00

and her dog, Maggie

Chris Davis: 25:03

...who are there at the WCA three days a week by giving their life's passion and time to help people. It's people like this who are doing the amazing work. But again, all of you out there can do something every day, whether it's, you know, helping a neighbor or giving a kind smile, turning around on the line in the post office or the grocery store. It's What Compassion Accomplishes, folks. We can all do something every day in our life, to make our world a better place.

Cory Mikhals: 25:33

It's funny, when I went to New York a couple of years ago, it was my first time going to New York City. I'd been to Buffalo and you know, some of the northern areas that doesn't count. So it was my first time being in New York in Manhattan. And I'd gone with a friend of mine, and a group of high school kids, theater kids

Chris Davis: 25:59

Oh my.

Shayla Peel: 26:00

That sounds really stressful.

Cory Mikhals: 26:03

Yeah, it was, but it was great. Taking them to theater, and you know, Broadway and all these different, great cultural activities. But as soon as we got off the plane, and we had gotten all the kids back to the hotel, or to the hotel for the first time. Well, I went out just walking around. And I'm just being me. And I walk around the corner. I'm like, "Hey, how you doing?" I'm smiling, waving at people. And my friend from Manhattan, she's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I don't know, just saying hi. " Yeah. Cuz they're all looking at me, like I was about to, you know, attack them or something. And they're like, what does this guy want? And it was so weird to me. That's one of the reasons why I love Idaho so much, but they've obviously never had that experience. And so the more you can just smile at someone, the more you can wave at someone. I know, when I see someone and they say hello in the morning, even if I'm a little grumbly that morning, it makes me smile. And we can all make this world a little bit better with the smallest of gestures.

Chris Davis: 27:30

So ask yourself, what does compassion mean to you?

Cory Mikhals: 27:33

Yeah, absolutely. This is What Compassion Accomplishes. Shayla, thank you so much, Chris, thank you.

Chris Davis: 27:42

Thank you, Cory.

Cory Mikhals: 27:43

It's always an honor. And for what is probably the last episode of 2021. I want to thank each and every person that has listened, whether it's your first episode, whether you have been following us from the starting or somewhere in between. We thank you, and we invite you to smile. And I hope you have a wonderful and very, very blessed holiday season and a happy new year and we will be be back in 2022 with a lot more to come.

Intro: 28:21

Thank you for listening to this episode of What Compassion Accomplishes. Again, if you or someone you know has experienced domestic abuse, dating or sexual violence, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1.800.799.7233 or the WCA's 24 hour hotline 208.343.7025.